Welcome to the IUPUI Center for Translating Research and to Practice Scholar of the Month Series. Today, we're welcoming doctor Jamie Levine Daniel to join us. And my name is Steve wick. I'm service the Associate Director for the Center, and my trustee assistant, Nuri Mc Lucas is on screen. She's the backbone behind all of this and can answer any questions in the chat that you might have around technical issues. We are life streaming this, and we are recording this event. But I want to welcome you to this event and bring to you some information about the center as we get started before we Welcome our guest today. So let me share my screen. And welcome you to this event, and remind you that our center was founded by doctor Sandra Petrono, who is Faculty emeritus in the Communication Studies in the School of Liberal Arts, and doctor Petroneo, is a translational scholar herself. And she coined and founded the the center for privacy management, and she has a whole theory around understanding the ins and outs of how we share private information. So you might want to learn more about that. But when she and Chancellor Emeritus, Charles Banz came to IEPY, some years back, what she noticed was that the amount of research that happens here at IEPY, in our urban campus is incredibly translational. And that we need to share that. We needed to let people know that the work that we do is in partnership with the community. It involves students, staff, and faculty on campus, and it is all about identifying information and solving problems in the community. Our current director is Charles Banz, who is carrying the torch and helping us continue to identify and promote translational research here on our campus. So please, we'll learn more about that in lots of different ways. But as we get started today, we have a the reminders about our meeting together. Hopefully by now, you're familiar with Zoom, and we'll ask you to keep your microphones muted. And there'll be a time when we have conversation. We hope then that you will turn on your camera so we can all see each other and be part of a community, and there'll be an opportunity for you to open your mic, ask questions, or make comments. Of course, you can leave comments in the chat, and we will keep track of the chat. And make sure that comments are shared with our presenter who is going to share some really interesting information with us. We are, as I said, recording this event for future use, so you could share that with other folks, you can check out our YouTube channel, and you will receive one of those very welcome post event evaluations. We hope that you'll take a minute to respond to that to give us some feedback about this event as we work together. So thank you, No for putting that into the chat to reminding people. If you want to keep updated, there's lots of stuff going out at our center. In fact, you can get continuing education credit for attending these sessions. So that's 1 hour per month. You can sign up for that by going to I U Expand. There's a link here in the screen, but you'll get a notice of that in the chat as well, and we'll send a follow up e mail to you with information after the event so that you can have links to all of these things as well in case you missed them during today. Hope that you'll follow us on social media. There's lots of ways to stay connected to us. Of course, we have a Facebook page Instagram and Twitter, where we're highlighting some of the fabulous things that are going on from our faculty and our campus and within our community. And you can always go to the YouTube channel for things that you've missed, so we hope that you'll do that. We have a wonderful partnership with the library at I UPY, and that involves something called Scholar work. So if you go to our featured scholar page, and today we could click on doctor Levine, for example, you would see some information about her work. But also, if you scroll down that page, you'll be able to see some of the selected translational works that relate to the research that she's sharing that are on something called Scholar works. And Scholar works is our way of making journal articles available at no cost to the general community. Once you're on anyone's page, you can also go to the Scholar works page at IUPUI in the library, and you'll find all kinds of information about our scholars there. It's a fabulous service, and we hope that you'll take advantage of that. Now, upcoming events, we're already into 2023. This is the end of the year, but in January, on January 11, we'll be, first of all, having an information session about the bans scholar and Fellow awards. And those applications will be due by the end of the month. You're welcome. If you're a faculty member at IUP one, you want to learn more about this opportunity to further your own translational and community engaged research, you can join us for an information session there. This will be recorded as well, in case you can't make it. And then our January scholar of the month conversation will feature Professor Emeritus Chalmer Thomson, and we'll be meeting again on January 27 at noon. And the talk title then is, what would our interactions look like if we were really serious about ending racism. So we hope you'll join us there at the end of the month. But today, we are super excited to have with us, as I said, doctor Jamie Levine Daniel. And she's going to talk to well, she is, by the way, an associate professor at the Paul O'Neal School of Public and Environmental Affairs. And today, she's going to talk to us about addressing inequity and otherring in our classrooms and communities. So I'm going to stop sharing my screen and let Janie her materials ready and turn on her camera and her microphone so we can hear her and get into the conversation. So welcome, Jamie. We can't wait to hear what you have to say. Thank you. I'm excited to be here. I am sharing my screen. I hope, am I sharing my. Okay. Looks good. I'm really excited to be here and talk about some common threads that have come together in my classroom and in my research and teaching. I see some students and former students. You all know I get when I get really excited, I start to talk really fast, so don't be afraid to tell me to slow down, especially those of you who know me and have been in class with me. And thank you all. I know a lot of you work at the university or a faculty or students. It is the end of the semester and finals week and grading and all of the things, and I am so appreciative that you've taken the time on a Friday and December to virtually come out today. So thank you for that. So a few things to know about me before I get into the meat of the talk. I'm Jewish. That's going to come up pretty clearly straightaway, but I do not speak for all Jews. We are not a monolith. I spent five years working in non profits, and then another ten years off and on in various Jewish and communal non profit organizations, so I have field experience. I got into this and started my initial research on non profit resource acquisition and service delivery. My dissertation was about earned revenue in non profit organizations. My research influences my teaching, which influences my service, which influences my research. So when I was asked to talk about the translational aspect, I can't to me, it's translational in the classroom and in our communities. That's especially relevant, I think because I teach public and non profit affair students who they're going to run or already are running non profits and serving in public office, or at the very least, even if they never work in public or nonprofit organization, we are all denizens of our communities and have the potential to be as active or passive as we want to be, but are all affected by the policies that are made and implemented by public and nonprofit. Organization, though I never intended to start or run a nonprofit. So those are the key things to key insights to sort of understanding how all of this happened and along my journey. So some things that I teach and talk about. And you'll, the areas with the stars also indicate I published in these areas, but I teach and talk about organizational founding, mission and value, tax data, strategy, collaboration, competition, policy process. I have my students work on business plans and OEs and write legislative testimony, participate in civic engagement assignments, write policy, and case memos. So these are some of the things that I spend my time on, right, both in and out of the classroom. So, I think that the hook or the description that went out on this talked about specifically my work on anti Semitism, which isn't anywhere on this list. So before I dive into that, I want to ask a question. How many Jews live in the US, and you should see a pole. Okay. So most common answer with 15 million followed by 7 million. The correct answer, 7 million. So most of you were right. The 3.5 million. That is the approximate US Muslim population. 15 million represents the approximate Jewish population, and 30 million is how many followers Kanya has up. Just for some perspective. So like I said, I spent five years before graduate school working in nonprofit. Specifically, Jewish non profits, never hid my identity, grew up in Cleveland, where we would get Rosa Shannan and Yo Kipor off from school, and none of that was, you know, strange to me. I live in Indiana now. Things are a little bit different here, and I had to learn how to navigate my Jewish identity. I was vocal about it in faculty meetings when things would get scheduled on high holidays, I would cancel class, but I wouldn't necessarily put Y on the syllabus. I would just announce randomly in September or October that, we wouldn't have class on a Tuesday or Thursday, right? And you know, I have that privilege. I can choose to be as open or not about my identity. But in 2018, in October, The shooting the Tree of Life happened in Pittsburgh. And I had a friend, a good friend, someone who I published with in the areas of emergency food provision, and nonprofit policy implementation. She reached out to me and she said, How are you going to address the shooting in your cluck? And her e mail really took me ab. I was like, I know why you're asking. I'm vocal about being Jewish, at least, like in faculty meetings and in our professional associations, and I was like a professional Jew for years before going to grad school and talk about it. But I thought, I have no idea. I have no idea how to talk about this in a way that it matters to people. And that would matter whether they know someone who's Jewish or not. And I have found I'm sometimes the first Jew or among the first Jews that many of my students have met. Again, trying to navigate this space. I was like, how do I make people care about it who may not know, or why they should care regardless of the fact that we're 2% of the US population. So, Rachel and I, together with our friend Jodi, we began writing. So first, we looked, right? We course searched for Someone's surely written a resource about how to teach about this in our classes. It turns out they hadn't. In fact, in most of our teaching journals and in most of our nonprofit and public management journals, to the extent that anti Semitism was mentioned, it was brought up as in conjunction with the Holocaust, which is a common thing, but not exactly helpful or accurate for the moment we were in. So we set out to write the resource that we wish existed. And we published in our teaching pedagogy, our teaching journal. This article about talking about antisemitism in mathro public administration classrooms and beyond. And what we tried to do with create a framing that was applicable to all forms of Oering. Othering is this phenomenon where somebody in power decides that other people based on some characteristic, could be religion, could be skin color, could be sexual orientation, could be gender, But you decide that this group of people is not considered a full citizen or a full deenizen of your community. And therefore, they're not eligible for full protection, and all of the services and benefits that living in this community should ordinarily accrue to them, right? So when you other them, you can say, well, they don't count. They don't matter. We don't have to provide for them. We don't have to account for them. So anti Semitism is a form of otherthering, though, is, you know, racism, massage and OR, homophobia, mophobia. So we're seeing some through lides here, right? So We framed our article as here's why to care. Othering is really important, right? You are people who are going to run and work for non profits and public organizations and be residents of communities. You're going to work with increasingly diverse staff and volunteers and community members, right? So how do you critique technical rationality, not focus on efficiency, how do you demonstrate cultural competence and humility, how do you demonstrate ethical approaches to power? These are reasons why you should care about Othering in general. And then we said, and here we're going to give you specific language around Jews Judaism and anti Semitism. And we started with a little bit of Judaism one oh one. Let's set this stage and provide a little bit of browting and information, and then a definition of anti Semitism. And then we provided a table of activities that said, you know, if you teach a data class, here are some activities, if you teach an HR class, here are some activities. All of those were geared around antisemitism, but it's a framework and an approach that you could use to address other issues of othering and hate and racism, et cetera, right? So a broad framework of why to care and how to talk about things and then a specific context and exercise. So was a resource for the field. And my mentor here, doctor Dons Fortenberry, who may or may not be on the call at the moment, he asked that this was going to be a research stream. And I was like, No, I researched like nonprofit resource acquisition. So I was like, Nah, this is a one off. Three years later, I now have a research agenda focusing on equity and policy process and practice. And so this is just some recent social media post from O'Neil, about presentations I made at our academic conference, talking about from a meta research perspective, the impact of bias and implicit bias on the research process and the real world harm that this can do when our research gets translated out in the world. I've also published on athletes as super citizens engaged in agenda setting for policy and pursuing social equity. And I'm also part of a large multi year multi site team researching if and how community foundations can dismantle racism and philanthropy. That's a whole other talk, and I'm happy to talk more about that in the slides, but could have been its own subject here. So, that has influenced my my research. It also started to influence how I acted and the practices I brought into the classroom. I learned to navigate my identity and my Jewish identity in the classroom as an instructor and as a researcher and thinking about that impact. And just Shan in a call a warning, you're a little bit featured here because I see you see you on the call. In the spring of 2019. No, no, no. Was it the fall? No, no. It was the fall of 2019. I had set a mid term exam, and my students had the opportunity they could take the prompt or they could write what they wanted. And I had it was an un essay. So they had the opportunity, they could choose to write a traditional essay, or they could change the format. I have really creative students. And so one of my sudents, Chan Nicole Glendon, Um said Shaker wrote an article, and you can see this ache, she said, In conclusion, at this point in the semester, I have more questions than answers, and then proceeded to list a bunch of questions, right? About sort of the impact of slavery and the plantation system on the nonprofit sector, the way that racism is based in where, you know, organi like white lead organizations get more resources than Black and brown led organizations, though oftentimes those are the organizations on the ground in the community. There were three, four or five questions. Right. And so I was like, it was one of those moments where the student became the teacher because I was like, these are in some ways glaringly obvious, and how have we not thought about them before, but also, like, the missing in the literature. So I remember reaching out to her, 01 of our journals, administrative theory and practice and practice had a call about dismantling racism in public and nonprofit organizations, and I e mailed her in the middle of the semester. I said, you can disregard this e mail. I know there's like a power issue here because I'm acroptor, you're still a student. But I think we should submit this. I think we should turn this into an article and submit an abstract and try to get this published. And sure enough, that is what happened. And in August of 2021, our article, the plantations fall in the nonprofit sectors rise, addressing the influence of the Antebellm plantation nonprofit sector got published. So we turned her mid term into a published scholarly article. She then, as part of her own research dissertation research hosted an aveted Spirit in place, which was amazing was a film screening and community conversations with this awesome panel, thanks to Indiana campus compact for that support. Um. And also, one of my own students this year in class wrote her a note of appreciation about our article and Shanonk responded. Article is a labor of Love and it's proven to be a pinnacle piece for my dissertation research. So here we see translational practices from the classroom, from research, having an impact on my student having impact on their community. Really, really, really cool opportunity. And I'm happy to talk more about how I translated addressing bias in my classroom practices as well. Again, I have like six topics and one in this presentation today. So that's a lot about teaching and how this is manifested in the classroom, although you can see how it influences my research as well. But as I mentioned, I have my students do civic engagement assignments, right? Because like I said, even if they never work in a professional capacity for a public or non profit organization, we all live in community. We're all affected by policies. And so I am curious how many of you have participated in advocacy or policy making efforts, you know, including but not limited to voting, driving other people to the poll, registering people to vote, rallying at the State House, publishing ed, all of these different things. And if you click yes, I'd love for you to put some examples of what you've done in the chat if you feel. Okay. Awesome. It's a very participatory group I love seeing this. 70%. Okay. Remember this. That never intended to start or run a nonprofit. The treats that started all. So in June, doctor Gabriel Bost, who also was on the Cal High gape, sent out this tweet. If you're a physician in Indiana and you are fed up with the political landscape, D M is I'm getting some folks together for some good trouble. And I remember seeing this and was like, Oh, that's cool. I'm not a physician. I don't do any of that. That's cool. I some people are doing some things. On January 25, the day after obs decision wrote, I gave sent the call, right? And I decided to DM him and I said, we've been like Twitter mutual Twitter followers and stuff. But I said, No healthcare adjacent, but nonprofit public service, if when you might use that perspective. Not even complete sentences. I was a little bit enraged, a bit enraged. Not even complete sentences. But then later that week, on Wednesday, which, by the way, when I sent this e mail, or I sent the DM, I was in Israel. So I was abroad. We came home later that week. We we got home, we flew to the US on Monday, got stuck, took us two days to get home. So Wednesday, I'm home like 60 hours after. I was supposed to be home. I'm et Lgged. I have no idea what's going on, but I hear there's a rally at Riley on IUPI's campus. And so I go and I meet in person, and I was like, I'm the one who DMs you about nonprofit public policy. And he said, Great, B on our steering committee. And I was like, Se. Had no idea what I was actually saying yes to. Again, I blame the jet lag, but it's fine. Since then. This was a few months ago. This is June, like five months ago, six months ago. We have started a five oh one C four nonprofit. I don't know what that is take B of V 525. But we started this nonprofit, a group of healthcare professionals, public health experts, doctors across all specialties, people who just care about science driven empirical health policy and quality outcomes. And so we started what's called the Good Trouble Coalition, a grassroots group of who's are healthcare and public health stakeholders who collaborate, educate, empower and facilitate political advocacy to improve life in Indiana in the areas of Patient Centered Care, public health, and social justice. And this is like if this isn't translational research and translational work, I have no idea what is, right? Because one of the first thing we did was put out a call for a physicians and healthcare professionals to sign a letter urging our legislature not to pass an abortion ban. And we published this letter in eight papers, I've got full page ads in eight papers across the state. And this ad. The text that the added in the smaller box, the text that you cannot read is a block of 1,100 healthcare professionals who signed onto this letter. Those the very first action organized in about six days that we did. Since then, we have advocated at the State House, that front row of the galley is a bunch of people in white codes from the great good Trouble Coalition, and there's people in the back rows as well. We've written E. So things that I do in my classroom, Look, I'm walking my talk, right? We publish pE. We have published ways to get involved in the Health and Hospital Corporation versus Talpki case. So urging people to contact legislators to attend rallies. Ways to be involved in many different ways, and many different skill sets, many different comfort level, providing scripts and links on how to call, making it as easy as possible for people to engage. We've published more p ds. We have published a press release, supporting one of our doctors who is being targeted by our attorney general. So lots of things that I've told my students to do, right? And assigned, there's a method made in the classes, right? But really living this out. And JPC, folks, if you're here, I'm probably missing some of the other stuff that we've done, feel free to add it in the chat. But, you know, I started on this journey out of a need. Like, how do we talk about anti semitism and thought it separate from the nonprofit research that I did and I can't emphasize this enough, never wanted to start or run a nonprofit. I was like, no, not what I wanted to do. But I figured out, I guess I'm in the process of figuring out who I am, as an instructor, as a researcher, as just a person living here in Indiana. And I've reached I figured out that when I lean into the various parts of my identities and the roles that I play, I can help others do that as well, right? Like healthcare professionals may not see themselves as advocates or policy influencers. But policy shows up in their exam. And often, by the way, in inequitable ways, like, Indiana has really, really bad infant mortality and maternal mortality rates, but they're disparate, and our communities of color are affected even more disproportionately than the communities at large. Again, that's yet another k. But politics therefore is their lane, Policy is their lane. I can't speak to the medical side of things at all, and I leave that to the professionals. But I can focus on organizational structure and founding and formalization. I can focus on the translational aspects that foster civic engagement. It gives weight when I stand in front of students and I say, you need to write an ad or practice writing ed, or you need to be civically engaged or you need to be aware. Being able To do that and say, not because it's on the syllabus, right? And this is a process of co creation with community part. I mean, this is like the very essence of co creating knowledge and co creating skills and co creating change in a community. I could go on and on about any of the slides that I've posted. But I'm going to stop here and open it up for conversation. And thank you so much for your time. Well, thank you for setting the stage for what I hope will be an amazing conversation. So as the invitation came out, this is a thank you for turning on your cameras, those of you that have. And if you have a comment, please raise your hand or let us know, and we can call on you, and let's have some conversation about this. Go ahead, Roe. Hi. For those of you who don't know me. I'm Rod Patrice I'm Professor Flex in Mexico, and I'm also a friend of James. First of all, thank you so much for this very informative talk. It's really interesting how we end up doing things that are meaningful to us, and then the informal research and you've provided a fantastic P to do this. This is a conversation that is easier to have in the United States. How do you do this in contexts that are not the United States? Like, for example, Mexico, there is obviously Jewish Jewish population in Mexico. And perfectly honestly, I don't know how to talk about this given that I'm not part of the population. So how do you inform yourself so that you can have these kind of conversations, which also, I mean, anti semitism happens in Mexico. There was a neo Nazi concert a few weeks ago here in Mexico City. So you would think, well, Mexico is very much a mixed, sort of comm type of population, and how can there be Manas in Mexico. So how do you do this with belonging to the community? So well, it depends, which is my favorite answer in class. But I see on two tracks. One thing is that at least here in the United States, I would imagine this is autoplicable, in other places. A lot of these isms, like anti Semitism is problematic. Well, that's an understatement. But it's problematic on its own because it affects people, but it's also problematic because it is so linked to other structures of white supremacy. Right? And so there are connections, whether you know someone who's Jewish or where you are Jewish, or you know someone who's affected by anti Semitism. Like, you need to address it on its own because it usually doesn't exist on its own, right? And so it's indicative of other deeper issues. And I'm not as familiar with the Mexican context, but, you know, I would imagine, or I guess, unfortunately, I wouldn't be surprised if there are issues, you know, like with native and indigenous racism against native and indigenous population and things like that. So we think there are ways to conttualize it that address the issue on its own and make it and connect it to larger systemic issues. That are more relevant or that people may be more familiar or experiencing in your communities. Other comments or discussion. Go ahead, Stacy. Yeah, I was just curious how, you know, working for a public university, if it's been difficult to do this type of work in consideration that we live in such a conservative state as well. If you proceive pushback or if there had been any challenges in creating this new organization and getting involved. As I scan the list to see who's here. Yes. To all of the above. I will say straight up, I'm a tenured professor. Not that I wasn't having these conversations before. When Shan Nicole and I published this article, when I published the anti Semitism article, I wasn't a tenured professor and got some You sure you want to do that right now? Push back from various circles, and I was like, Yes. And if I don't get tenure, like, I don't want to be at a place that is going to punish me for that. It's also a conversation. But yeah, so yes, short answer. I'm privileged. Like I said, I could have chosen to walk away from this work. I can choose not to well, I say I could choose not to, like, be Jewish and open about it, but I can't anymore. It's really, really woven in. But yeah, I mean, it is, you know, there's a lot of attention and sort of reviews and pushback and potential criminalization of certain issues. But I work at a school of public affairs, and regardless of what the feeling is in the department of the university, I can't I can not do this work and have these conversations with my students and bring these things up and do the things that I'm doing and be a good steward of public and nonprofit affairs. It would be hypocritical. I think given the challenges that our students in our communities are facing. And I have these conversations. I happened to teach on the fourth anniversary of the Tree of Life shooting. And I was teaching my internal public affairs class undergrads, mostly first years. And I brought it up. I was how many of you know what today is and not a lot of them did, and I brought it up. I played a clip from a pot cast called Vide Check, where Sam Sanders was talking with Say Jones and that Oh, my God, I just linked on the third member's name. But he drew the bright line between anti Semitism and racism in structures form. I played them in a long clip and told them a little about the background and kind of explained why it should matter to them. And I actually just got their reviews today. The reflection papers that I do, not the student evaluations the teachers. And a th line through a bunch of them was thank you for creating space where we could have these hard conversations. And thank you for creating space where I could disagree with people in a respectful way and learn how to talk. With them, which is, like, amazing, by the way, and I kind of want to print that on the T shirt and frame it and, you know, all of that. But yeah, I think, yes, it's hard. Yes, I get pushed back and no, I can't see doing it any other way. There are definitely consequences for it, but the consequences of not engaging this work are far greater. Doctor Tan. You will not go ahead. Yeah, one of the things that I stood out in your comments so far was a sense that you began to authentically integrate your identity into your academic life. And I'm on the sunset side of my career, right? At 61. I feel like I was raised on that agenda of separating who you were in your home and religious life and personal being or even not even talking about being a woman in a world or in departments where men were dominating those sort of things. So I'm very interested in how this authenticity that you've now created for yourself feels. And clearly it's affecting your work, but I'm just interested in that reflection of before you did this and now after doing and working this way. Yeah. When I When I look back, so I defended my dissertation in August of 2014 and had my first child in September. And so from early on, my lives were intertwined. Like, I had to I had to myself as a nursing mom on the job market because I had to have accommodations in you know, in the schedule of visitation and things like that. So so even early on, some of those things were just integrated, and some of it was not by choice, right? And so in some ways, I've kind of always done it in some ways. Like I said, the being able to be open about my Judaism. I mean, I think going back to stat to your question, like, how it felt to be open about my Judaism. That was scary, honestly, like that. But I also I kept like there were a series of events. I'm kind of blinking, there was an event there were incidents on campus where another professor was targeted. My synagogue got hit by Spasticas, like the tree of life shooting happened, and I kind of was like, well, I don't know how to talk about it. And in the article, I've never actually Other than a Flo authored academic piece, where I said, I ran on this regression, right? Never used I in an academic article. But in the article that we wrote, we actually wove in our own personal experiences to kind of explain why this should matter. And there was definitely an element of vulnerability there, and it's terrifying in some ways. But in some ways, it's like a This is a way, right. And it makes it easier in some ways to just kind of own it. Like I said, I was like vocal in projects. But I kind of don't know any other way to be. I also, like I've mentioned my kid. I have a daughter. I want her to be strong and confident. Like the conversations that we've had about being the only house without Christmas lights on our street and things like that. Like, it all starts to blend together. So in some ways it's scary, and sometimes consciously I'm like, Wow, that's a lot of vulnerability and personal information out there, and in some ways, like, how it just is at this point. But I've also found the rewards. Like I said, my classes have been even more phenomenal and fun. Also. Like, even in the hard conversations, it's fun in some ways. I mean, it's not fun to constantly be talking about issues of racism and anti Semitism, and all of the things, it's fun to know that you're in a space that those conversations are welcome and genuine. It sounds rewarding to have that experience. Yeah. Gabriel, you have your hand up. Yeah, I just want to say mostly for Jamie, but sort of in a public sphere as well. You know, the work that she talked about with the Good Trouble Coalition doesn't happen without Jamie. It doesn't exist. It It is a a wish in someone's brain without a catalyst to move it forward. And Sean and I were private messaging each other during your talk, we don't know each other, but clearly, you've had that effect on certainly more than just the good trouble coalition. And to have faculty members at the institution that are catalysts like that is a a gift to the university, but from my perspective, it is a gift to the State of Indiana as well, because, you know, I really believe that the work that we're doing is massively important and was a complete vacuum prior to the existence of this work, and it wouldn't exist without you. And you made me tear up when you were talking about everything. And I'm just very thankful for you. So thank you. I mean, why I do what I do in the ways that I do it. I right there. I think that is the other thing, I think, doctor Timan to figure questions to some of the others. And I've said this to family members as well. Like living in Indiana and being a Jewish woman in Indiana can be a challenge sometime, having a way to listen, like, I can publish, and I've had some really good years in the past few years. How many people reading those articles, right? L six. Maybe Ted with the Anti Semitism one. Knowing that I'm making a difference because I've begin to embrace like, I'm like, even just having the confidence to, like, the game and then go up to them and be like, Hey, I'm that person, right? And it also has been reinforcing in some ways for all of the challenges, and for, like when I was more active Twitter, because, who knows what's happening there. But like I would I pinned the anti S article and then every so often, we would just re tweet it out being like, Oh, for no reason whatsoever. Usually, there were several reasons why, right? But that was good, and that was great, but really being able to make a difference and feel that and feel like, Oh, I'm using my skills, right? Like I'm finding an outlet for these skills, for these things that I talk about. And Oh, hey, looks like I know what I'm talking about. When I look at my syllabus, and then I look at the work, to have it kind of mutually reinforced in that way is a bless I mean, sometimes dhausting. But most of the time, it's a blessing to be able to look and say with some confidence because for those of us who are academics, especially, or who publish and whatnot, like, that's not a confidence inducing endeavor, right? Like, so much of our work is predicated on what other people think, and usually it's not nice and it's not confidence inducing. And so to have these outlets where it's like, well, I don't care what the editors say or I don't care what the reviewers say, or I don't care what some of my colleagues might be saying. Like, this is worth it, and this is making a difference, and having that outlet and finding that I think has, reinvigorated some of my own, research and also confidence in saying, No, this is what I'm going to do now. This is my research agenda now. You know, none of this is like this dismantling racism and philanthropy project. This is the multi site multi year project. We have one paper under review right now, but this is like a big thing. I mean, that speaks more to the structural issues in academia, but this is not something I can necessarily take on, you know, pre tenure. Right? But I have the time and the luxury in a sense to do it. But it's important work that should be done no no matter what. And so I'm going to use my privilege and position to do it because it's important, and it matters, and it's reflective of my own growing areas of expertise. Well, I appreciate you mentioning about the reach of your work, and I'll just remind everybody that's here today to go to your page on the trip website so that they could easily access your work in scholar works. And you'll find if you do some analytics on that, that it does help extend the reach around the world for work like this. So hopefully people will take advantage of that. But let's go to Shanda who has her hand up, and after that, we'll go to Stacy. Hi. I'm Shandon Nicole. Thank you so much. Doctor JL D as well as Steven for the opportunity to give voice. I'm curious because I heard in your last statement, doctor JOD this notion that you could not do this pre tenure. And so what does the embodiment of your kind of work do in terms of posing a critique to higher education and to the system that we are all deeply wedded to for good or for bad. What does it say that we are perpetuating systems that do not hold space for human flourishing that we all agree is necessary and important. But we want our students, we want our scholars, we want our servants and the institutions to wait until they get to tenure or some safe space of landing. What does that say about our institutions and how can we perhaps address it in ways that's life giving? Yeah, well, I mean, part of that is that it does say that we reinforce these institutions. And I think we have to think about the questions that we ask and try to answer and what is reasonable for trying to answer this. And it's easier for me to critique the solution, so I'll say that right off the bat. But like exam for example, examining systems of racism and philanthropy and community foundations. Those community foundations have existed for a century or more. They're not going to be dismantled in a year or two, but yeah, we expect certain publication numbers. Even if we say, Oh, it doesn't matter how many you publish, it matters, right? We know all of that. If you're a a tenure track job. And so, you know, if we're truly going to dismantle some of these things, you know, and also, peer review is a hot mess right now. Like, I'm an associate editor, not that it hasn't been before, but I'm an associate editor on a journal. Anyone else here, like an editor or associate editor responsible for finding reviewers for articles? Everyone is stretched, and I can't have many reviews. I've done myself this year. It's just everything has been ground to a halt. I think some of that is still pandemic and puts pandemic and exhaustion and burnt out and all of the things. You know, I don't know if the answer is other than a complete ret, and I have my dream answer and then, like, what's reasonable. But all I can do is to continue to do this work, because I also think the more people that are involved in this work and making it through the tenure line, right? The tenure process and sitting on the evaluation like, I'm a void in a room now. Right? And I should not surprise anyone in a vocal voice in the room now. And so I can say, no, this work takes time. But if we truly care, as our standards say about community engagement or this or that. My voice might not care yet. I hope it does. But, you know, there are fights that I can fight now because I've gone through it and can speak with some authority on sort of the energy and the resources that it take to do this type of work and to point out, like, look, there is the research agenda. Like, if tenure and promotion is in part, the promise of what someone is going to continue to do, like, we can point to it, but to say, do you want good research or do you want fast research? And do you want, you know, fat research or do you want research that actually matters and makes a change? And what do we think of research? Like I said, I've got articles about policy implementation in public performance and management review and nonprofit voluntary sector quarterly. Like, how many of you all have read any of that if you weren't assigned any of it in my classes, right? But how many of you read the Indi Star? So we have an odd bet about the very complicated sort of financial nature of the HHC versus Talki case that is translational and showed why this case matters, and how can affect you as an individual living in Indiana or beyond if you are a recipient of services based on our social safety net, right? That has as a public nonprofit, you know, in a school of public affairs. That is more impact to me than the article in PPMT Do MR, I'm proud of my academic scholarship, too. But that's an article that is like the Indi Star is something that is read by people who actually need to read it and know about these things, right? So I think it's an understanding of what this type of work takes. What is appropriate? For school of public affairs, what should we be thinking about? Should we be valuing public scholarship more than we do? Spoiler alert? Yes. Yeah. I could go up. Shanta, that's an excellent question, and I'm glad you raised it, and you can see that there's a need to have continued space to talk about these things. And I will just reflect, I think, again, the Using scholar works as a way to put all of these kinds of scholarly activities in one place helps to show the evidence of why that's important beyond what you just described, Jie about, how we need to value that or how we can value that, the reach, and how people use it. So you can check in the chat. Newi has been able to put in some links there so that you could easily go to that and see. We have time for just one more comment before we need to pull ourselves together, so Stacy will call on you, you have your hand up. Yeah, and I'd be happy to make the final comment, but also, I've already asked or made a comment or asked a question, so I just wanted to check first. Is there anyone else who wanted to say something? I think you go ahead. We can stay on for others that need to stay on later. But please. Great, great. I recently. So I worked for the IU Center for Global Health and I sued to be the IU Center for Global Health Equity. And we have a program called the Academic Model providing access to healthcare A Path. And so in my line of work, we are talking quite a bit about de colonizing global health and equity issues and what that looks like. And I recently attended a Webinar, I think it was presented by some students and some faculty from Duke. And they talked about something called positionality or, like, putting a position statement in their research paper. And I just this was kind of new to me. I'm not a faculty member, so I'm not publishing, you know, research. Is this now becoming a common practice? And I was just curious what your thoughts are on it, because you talked a little bit about the vulnerability of being out, you know, in your faith and things like that. And from what I understand these position statements are something where people are very vulnerable and just put out, like, for an example, one that says, She's Caucasian, cisgender, heterosexual, able bodied woman, benefiting from an intersection of privileged identities, and then some other types of things. So it really goes into depth about their background and where they're coming from with their research. Yeah, I don't know if if it's common yet. Saw Nicole and I actually have them in our our statement. In our article kind of explaining the professor student relationship and how it all evolved. And I think they can be taken a few different ways, but I think there are actually critical elements and ways. So one of the articles I referenced in presentations that is now part of my research team is implicit by it and thinking about positionality. So this is a direct response to an article that was published in one of our journals about who is religiously discriminated against, and it got picked up by Press, and it has done some harm the authors actually claimed that they wrote the article before 2016 before Trump though anti Semitism wasn't an issue. Which is a whole other barrel of monkeys. But the idea of thinking about being reflective, whether or not you put a statement in there being reflective and thinking about who you are related to the research, whether you should be the one asking or trying to answer the question in the first place. I think it's really critical to potentially mitigating some of the harm. I think again, depending regardless of how spifor, if you include that type of work, I think being intentional and explicit can help address some of those biases that can do harm and can help us think about whether the right people to be doing the research in the first place. But, yeah, it is definitely an element of vulnerability to put stuff out there. Well, Jamie, I want to thank you on behalf of the audience for Sherry, for creating a space. I'm with you in everything that you're talking about, and really appreciate how you've given so many ideas. I think you were saying, if this isn't translational, I don't know what it is. I have to agree with you. There were so many things that we could each take away from how you presented your journey and your path, and how it relates to your translational work, your research, your scholarship, and how you apply it to your everyday life, but also with your students. So thank you for taking the time to do that. 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