Good afternoon, and welcome everyone to the IUPUI Center for Translating Research into Practice Scholar of the Month Conversation Series. Today, we're delighted to have with us, Professor Leah Bishop. And my name is Steve weg. I'm the Associate Director of the Center, and it's a pleasure to welcome you here to these monthly events where we learn so much about some of the amazing research that happens right here at the IUPUI campus. The idea of the center for translating research into practice is the brain child of Professor Emeritus and founder of our center Sandra Petronio, who herself is a world renowned translational researcher in the area of privacy management of information. And it was her idea and dream that we would have these kinds of conversations, a space where we could hear about exciting research and then talk about it with each other with members of our community, whether that's on campus or throughout the world. Executive director of our center is Charles Bans. He's the Emeritus chancellor of our campus. And it's his mission and goal to further the work of our center by recognizing, celebrating and encouraging translational research, research that's interdisciplinary, and that works together to generate knowledge that we use to solve problems in our community. We get together today, just some Zoom etiquette reminders. Please keep your microphones mute. You're welcome to turn on your camera. And later on when we have conversation, we hope that you will turn on your camera and that you will join us by unmuting and having a chat. In the meantime, there are a couple of questions that will be popping up in the chat. We hope that you'll take a moment to respond to those. Our professor this morning, Leah Bishop is going to be she's wondering what you think. And wants to get some of your thoughts. So please take a look at that, start some conversation in the chat as we get going. We do record these conversations. So if you want to see this again later, or you want to share it with somebody else, you can go to our YouTube site and find out more information. And of course, you will receive one of those very welcome post event evaluation links in the e mail. Please take a moment to fill that out. Give us some feedback and some ideas about what to do next. We do offer continuing education credits for this series. You can go to expand Iu dot eDU to learn more about getting credit for attending these conversations. And of course, there's a lot going on in the center for translating research into practice. How do you find out? Well, go visit our website, but the best thing you can do is pick your favorite social media channel. We're on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and of course, we have our YouTube channel. But just how do you do it? Just follow us and keep up to date. We like to take every opportunity we can to put in a shameless plug to support the Bans Community Research Fund. We're very excited to be announcing the recipients of the Bans Fellow and the Bans Scholar award. So go check it out on our website. We'll hear more about those folks at our fall showcase coming up later on as the semester begins, but if you are so inclined, please support this in any way that you can. We have an amazing partnership with the IUPUI library, where we're able to connect folks to learn more about our scholars and their amazing work. It's called Scholar workks. If you go to the website, you can look up Lea Bishop, for example, and click on her lovely picture and scroll down where you can see all of her journal articles that are available to you without having to go to the journal. They're free and accessible through Scholar works. You can also go to her Scholar workks page on the library to have easy access to all of the work. We try to make this available for all of our scholars so that you have access to learn more about the work that they're doing in the easiest way possible. Next month, we're excited to be hosting for our July scholar of the month series, Professor Christine Picard, who will be talking about discovering Nature's powerful allies in sustainability and justice. You won't want to miss this one. It's very interesting. But today, we're delighted to have with us, Leah Bishop, who's professor of law, and Dan Fellow in the McKinney School of Law at the IUPUI campus, and her translational research focuses on ending book Hunger. It's a pleasure to have her with us here today. So please give a warm Hoosier welcome. To Leah Bishop. And Leah is going to get us going with her presentation. She'll unmute and get us started. Well, hello, everyone. Thank you so much for being here today, making time for this conversation. And I do really hope that it will be a conversation. I have some prepared remarks at the beginning. But for me, it's the interactive and the sharing of ideas that is so exciting. So I hope that you will make liberal use Of the chat, to share reactions to anything that's being said, to share your answers to those questions, and at the very beginning, to introduce yourself, right? What brings you here today? Do you identify as a teacher, a parent, an author, et cetera and sharing answers to those initial questions. What is your favorite children's book? And why? And that will help me also tailor the presentation. I will also say, always say this to my students when we meet on Zoom. I love being able to see your faces and adjusting to the reactions that I see. So if I can convince you to turn on video, that will be fabulous. That makes me really happy. Nuri or Arnie, can you advise people if they turn on video? Does their video become part of the recording, even if they're not speaking. Okay. All right. So that's informed consent, right? Well, thank you, everybody. So let me get my presentation loaded up here. And how are we doing? Can we see my slides now? We do, but we see all your tools again. Oh. But that's giving people some time to offer you their favorite books in the chat. So we'll take a look at that. I am worried that if I hide my tools, I oh, now that takes up space. Okay. I think we're going to go with this. So my name is Leah Bishop. I'm a professor at the Indiana University McKinney School of Law on the Indianapolis Campus. I specialize in teaching human rights law and copyright law. And something that's unique about my research is that I really marry those two things. I look at copyright law. From the perspective of human rights and social justice with a very international lens. And I've been doing that for about 15 years. In the past five years, I've looked increasingly at the global problem of childhood book Congers is what I'm calling it. And that really refers to the scarcity and the inaccessibility of reading material that is affordable, culturally relevant, and in the right language for approximately 1 billion children today globally. But I'd like to start with this, right? I asked you to share and chat with me. What is your favorite childhood book? And I bet a lot of you can guess mine with this hint. Is this ringing bells for anybody? This is the Pokey Little Puppy. And what is interesting about the Pokey Little puppy, it is that it's part of this little Golden book series. These appeared in the United States, starting about in the 1950s. And in the grocery store, the checkout line, the department store, these would be on display, and they were very affordable, originally $0.25. I think they sell for maybe $3 now. And this was a very big shift in American children's literature, it democratized book ownership, which previously had been a luxury for the elite, and it really made reading accessible to children from a much broader range of life backgrounds. And that's particularly important because social science researchers have found over and over and over again, that if you want a sense of where a child is going in life, what their opportunities are going to look like. What what educational level are they going to achieve? What will their future income be? That the best predictor is to look at the number of books that is in their home. This matters more than parents educational level. It matters more than the income level of where they grew up. And I find it particularly fascinating that this is a finding that they have replicated and found to hold true not only in the US, but in many countries around the world. Capitalist countries and communist countries, countries of all sorts of different languages being predominant. Rich countries, poor countries. This is a universal finding, right? The most powerful predictor of a child's future opportunities in life is personal book ownership. And that's a problem, because for most children in the world, the number of books in their home is zero. Here's a picture that I think really is one of those picture worth 1,000 words examples from a school in India, in Africa, and you will see that even in a classroom, even the most basic thing, a textbook, we have four students sharing it here. And this is a common problem. In fact, development interventions, one of the things that they have focused on is making sure that they get one textbook per child in the schools. And there have been the studied results of that have been that, for example, all across Latin America, this is a very cost effective, successful intervention is to make sure that every child has a textbook that they can take home with them. And they have not found that result to equally hold true in Sub Saharan Africa. And I think the explanation for that is that when you give in American children a textbook in Spanish, they speak that language. They can take that home, their parents speak that language. All you have to do is decode it and sound it out loud. And boom, you understand what's being said. Right? And we have literally thousands of different languages being spoken across Africa. So when you give a child a textbook in French or English, there is no guarantee that that language is going to make sense for them. So one of the most important points that we can make right at the outset is that when you're thinking about getting books into children's homes, getting books into their hands in the classroom at home, it matters crucially what language the book is in. The language has to match to the child. A. We're still seeing your intro slide. So however you have it set up, we with. There's been a lot of comments. People want to see what you're seeing, so you should try this again. Professor Bishop, do you want me to share my slide? There we go. Now you're. Oh, thank you so much. You got this is the little golden books that I was referring to, if you didn't encounter those growing up in America, and this is the I was describing the picture. Alright. So as we think about, like, how are we going to get books to children or children's to books? This is a major part of my research. Has been looking at the ways that nonprofit organizations are already doing that successfully. And one of the big strategies that is available these days, is using digital book delivery, right? Because this is a device that people already own. There are already on the planet, more smart phones than toilets, right? So this is we may have gaps. We may have less data availability in many places. We may have only one cell phone per family rather than one per individual, but this is a potential library in almost every home. So where then the books going to come from to fill this library? And still on the delivery level. If children don't necessarily, children are not going to have their own phone to read books all day long, what else can we do? And the best ideas and solutions to this are coming from local context where people know what their specific community challenges and opportunities are. I love this example. We have I think this is actually a library setting. It might be a classroom setting. And you can see that with just a projector and probably a chrome book, stories that have been created and saved in slide formats are being projected so that you can have a color story font large enough for students to read, and so we could have 60 students at once reading the same book, although nothing has ever been printed. Um, Print is challenging and language is challenging. And if you've grown up all your life, speaking English, reading in English, you might not appreciate how uniquely special the advantages are that come with being born into the English language community. This graph is showing that almost a quarter of all the books that exist in the world are published in English. And the next most common language after that, Mandarin Chinese has half as many, right? German and Spanish follow. And then we have another handful of languages that are each about 5% of the Pi and all other languages together. And we have about 7,000 languages that are still being spoken and that are used in writing systems. All of those together Add up to 17%. And 1 million of the world's children are in that gray pie where there simply aren't enough books. This is a chart that I put together. I spent some time in South Africa and studied the Ii Zulu language. And so I was comparing the number of titles that are available in the most populous African language spoken in the richest African country. And what I found is that there were about 500 titles available compared to 55,000 English language children's titles, right? And those 500 books. You could tell most of them are produced by nonprofit organizations as a labor of love. In most countries in the world, I'm sorry. Let me say in most language communities, there is simply not the critical mass of large enough number of speakers of sufficient affluence, that this can be a profitable industry. That's quite unique to English and mandarin and a few other languages. Some of the most important solutions to that problem are going to come from the nonprofit sector. One of the organizations that I study that I'm most impressed by is called ProthM Books. In India, this is spelled PRA TH AM. Maybe somebody could put a link to the website into our chat. They have been publishing for a few decades, and they have local creators and illustrators creating books that are culturally relevant, and then they will print them in massive print runs in about ten Indian languages including English, all at the same time, and they can sell those to schools for about $1 a copy. And of course, they have jumped on the digital wagon like everybody else, and they believe that it's so powerful that they have made it their primary focus. No to the exclusion of print, but another one of the very exciting things that digital allows you to do is to create platforms for content creation. All right. So if we think about making books more widely available or in the correct languages, then we still have questions of, how are we going to stock the shelves, right? One of potentially the quickest ways to do that would be to take this vast resource that we have of 55,000 children's books in English and simply translate those. The very first time that I presented this project to a group of colleagues very early on before I'd interviewed organizations, before I knew what the solutions were, I thought we needed to create all the books from scratch so that they would be culturally relevant. Everybody immediately said, No, we should translate, that's the efficient shortcut, and I was very resistant to that because of this problem, right? Even in the United States, there has always been traditionally been a problem with books being culturally relevant to a broad cross section of the population, right? So in 2012, you know, only 3% of children's book titles had African American characters. Only 1.5% had Latino characters, right? The children's book authors tend overwhelmingly to be white women, and we are writing from what we know. So here's an example of that. This is actually a favorite book of mine in my children's. This is a fantastic book for my children. I have three girls, and the little sister Big Sister dynamic is huge in our family. These characters are called Marigold and Lily, but when we read the book, we make it about Josephine and Ellie. And these children do things that my family does, right? They have ballet lessons and performances. They go to the art Museum. But this is The reason this book is so exciting to my children is that it is very personal. They see themselves in the book very easily, and most of the world's children will not. So when we are choosing titles that could potentially be translated as this sort of shortcut to stalking the digital libraries worldwide. We need to be very choosy, because it's not just about language, it's also about the contents of the book. So this is a page image from a story that was created through the African storybook project. This story it's about a little girl and all the things that she has grown up and independent enough to do for herself, which is a theme that we could see anywhere. But it is really the illustrations and the settings and the use of familiar clothing and housing and landscape and animals. That make this a book that the target population is going to identify with very, very easily. Right? So when I think about translating books, yes, the shortcut would be that we want to take already existing titles, simply translate them, we could reach 99% of the world's children by translating into only 1,000 languages, we don't have to reach all 7,000 because there's a curve where increasingly they have fewer and fewer speakers. If we want a 99% solution, 1,000 languages will achieve that. And if we have a core library in each of those languages of 50 titles, That just means so much for the early development of children's literacy skills. To create 50,000 titles, a short cut approach is very much needed. And so I started looking again more carefully, coming back to this question of, well, Are there books that we could translate that would be culturally relevant, and I started to find them when I was looking. So Nikki Daly is a South African author, has just this lovely lovely book, my children, and I love reading it together. It's a little girl who does something naughty and ruins her mother's dress, and then the community comes together and saves the day, right? So it is a theme that children everywhere can identify with, right messing up, getting in trouble, being forgiven. But again, it has these specific contexts. And when I was at a conference in Johannesburg, South Africa, I met a woman who owns a small publishing company in Ghana. And she said she discovered this book at a children's literature conference in Mexico and thought immediately, Oh, this will resonate perfectly with children in Ghana. So many books do travel well. What types of books can travel well? Here's an example that some of you will recognize from a very famous American author. And this book is set in a US city. But when I saw it, my eyes said, Oh, this could be Johannesburg, South Africa, right? So it is a little bit like sifting for gold to go, and I used to sit in the public library and just re read through hundreds of children's books to see what could be our candidates for translation. And I figured out that there are a couple categories that these really fit into, right? There is a genre of folk tales, and just they travel so well, right? Children, everywhere are interested, and There's sort of two varieties of these that I see. One is more traditional folktales, and the other is sort of a more modernized, but they still have those folk tally elements of there's a traditional setting without a lot of material possessions. There's a moral. These are teaching stories, right? And teaching stories are core part of children's education and growing up world Next, we have a genre that is relatively recent in the United States, where we have authors specifically making for American children, books that are set in and reflect a different culture, right? Which might be international, such as this book goal that is set in South Africa, but, you know, sports, something that children around the world identify with. Or they're domestic. A Bola, a perfect example of a story. I think it's set in New York has its very culturally specific setting characters, but very widely appreciated. These are another category of books that travel well, and there are already at least 750 titles in print in the United States that meet these criteria. Another category I found books about science and nature. Those travel very, very well. And this is a larger genre. We have about 1,000 of these that we could draw from. And the largest of all of books with animal characters do tend to be they can travel well because they are less culturally specific, right, especially if they're in natural settings. With characters that are anthropomorphic and that they're going to speak, they're going to have these social interactions. But as long as they are not dressed in clothes, that sort of marks them as specifically of a particular culture, these again, are stories that children from any ethnic background, cultural background, could project themselves into and see that they belong to. So we found out that we do literally have thousands of titles that already exist, very high quality that we could choose 50 from So then, how economical would this translation approach be? And the data there is very encouraging. So these costs come from Pthm books in India. This is what it costs them to develop a brand new title from scratch. And you will see the orange part and yellow part of this pi graph in the red part. All of those reflect costs that are that are incurred with the initial creation of the story. But then if you want to go from that to translating that story into another language, you're dealing only with the new cost of translation, type setting in the new language, and proof rating the translation. That is about one eighth of that. We can do that very, very economically. I actually forget why this girl is crying in this image. Maybe she's crying for joy, right? Because this is exciting. So at the end of this, I realized, look, we could any one of these big five publishers in the United States could almost snap their fingers and end childhood book ger globally, right? By making 50 well hand picked titles from their list, authorized for translation into other languages. So we can leave out the profitable ones, English, French, Spanish, German, Japanese mandarin, we can say, look, if you want to translate those into those languages, where market does exist, where we can make profit, then you need to negotiate a license with us and pay for it. But if we sort of create freedom for people to translate without having to go through, you know, you would pay a lot more to have the American lawyer draw up the contract than it would take to translate it. And that, in fact, is a lesson that I learned while I was studying nonprofit strategies to make books accessible to visually impaired persons, right? So in the United States, this was something that our copyright law has long had a specific exception to enable. Nonprofit organizations can take any book they don't necessarily have to contact the author or the publisher. They can just roll with it, start converting that book into accessible format for their specialized target audience. And eliminating the legal barriers that way is perhaps the biggest challenge that we face right now to multilingual children's publishing. So I have more suggestions and strategies in the book from the copyright perspective for how we can do that. But I would like to pause there and begin our discussion and hearing from people who are in the audience personal perspectives, how can we use these strategies in our community? What are the needs that you're seeing in your community? And what questions do you have that you hope Maybe I have the answers or maybe you're giving me an idea for future research. So this is the time for folks to engage their cameras, as many of you have, and raise a hand and maybe share something, and I don't know if you had a chance Leah to look at the responses right now. Well, I can tell you, I'll I'll flip through the books that I saw so that you can hear them and that gives folks a chance to formulate their questions, but here's what I saw. Titles include, I'll love you forever. Mixed up files of misses Basal, the book with no pictures, the color of us. If you give a mouse a cookie, the very hungry caterpillar, The big box, Mother Goose, where the Wild Things are. Please, baby, please. The monster at the end of this book, Crown, the Jolly Postman, and anything by Shel Silverstein. Oh, I had such a conflicted relationship as a child with the monster at the end of this book. It was fabulous and scary. Like, I really was invested in the suspense and drama aspect of it. Um, I didn't know that Toni Morrison had a children's book. I'm going to have to check that one out. Please, baby, please, Oh, loved that book for my kids. One thing that I learned in my research about the very hungry caterpillar when I was talking to an organization called First Book. Maybe somebody can google that and put that link in the chat. They do amazing, wonderful work. They were working to specifically serve the needs of Title one schools and similar nonprofits, right that have serve mostly children of low family income. And they had teacher parental demand for bilingual books, right? So the child is learning English in school, but you also want them to be able to have that book at home, reading it with their parents, facilitating that exchange and bringing you reading into the home. And what they had found was very hungry caterpillar. They had it in English. They had it in Spanish, but it never occurred to the publisher to put the two of them together into a single copy. That was a request that came from the grassroots, easy for the publisher to accommodate, given that there was a large nonprofit organization that said, well, you know, we can contract in advance to buy X thousand copies of this to then turn around and sell to their market. O h, you know what? That reminds me because I had that we saw that the pictogram in there about 2012, the lack of diversity in children's books. I need to also add in a recent one because this has changed. So much. The children's book industry in the United States now has become dramatically more diverse, and that didn't happen by accident. That was that is the result of so much nonprofit organizing and creating the market for that and pushing for that. And it's just been amazingly effective. Related to that, there's a question in the chat and it's by Archer, who says, teenage son happens to be listening and wondering about whether re illustrating books would make them more culturally relevant. Yeah. I love that idea. We do. We have some lovely books that I think are kind of an instant turnoff from page one if they're centering white children. I see that sometimes in lovely lovely science books, but the very first page, you know, it starts with two white children looking at a book. We're curious about science, right? And that just narrows the relevance of the book. Right? It can create an impression that, oh, these things are for kids that look like this and not for kids that look like me. I noticed that Latasha Rally said that in her capacity as working with tutoring and mentoring for kindergarten through fourth graders that she loves the book Crown because it is very culturally responsive for Black males. I was thinking earlier today about this shift, especially, within the United States and diversity, especially we've seen a shift for there to be more books by black male authors relevant for Black boys. And that was sort of something that was really, really missing. And I think we're going to see consequences for that positive consequences as that generation climbs of higher education, success and achievement. That's what the data says, We should see, right? And I'm thinking also because I work in a law school setting that nationwide, the bar passage rates, we see a very strong demographic. Difference, where Black men are not passing the bar exam at anywhere close to the same rates as, for example, white women. I actually think a lot of the bar exam is really a test of how fast do you read as a timed exam. And so if, you know, 20 years ago, 15 years ago, as you were growing up, there were not children's books that were exciting to you. You were not developing those reading skills in the same way that my daughters have the chance to be because there's just there's an excess of books that they can identify with. Rover. Are there any questions or comments from the audience? We'd love for you to have some discussion here with Leah. So I see that Ruth has a question in the chat about how do we address book distribution throughout the world. I would actually love at Ruth if you would verbally elaborate on that question. I Ruth R. Yes. Yeah. Well, I just know that in parts of the world when it comes to getting food distributed to certain areas of the country, that there are barriers that come up. And I would think that those same barriers might be there with Print books, now, maybe not with digital, but certainly with print books. So how do you address that? You are so right, and that is what I hear from organizations in the developing world is the exciting thing for them about digital books, right? In the United States, it's just sort of like one more option, right? Because I can go to Amazon and have the book I want show up on my doorstep later that day. And that is just not the reality in other places, right? And we can have very long roads, lack of highways, elevation changes that make things very challenging. I read the founder of the organization world reader visited and took books with him on YAC to get to a community that had requested, said that they wanted. They wanted books. So the distribution challenges are very real. What is, I think, more surprising is that for books, the challenge is 1,000 times greater than for food, because I'm in Puerto Rico right now. I'm planning on eating some rice and beans later today. Let's use that example. Everybody in the country is happy to eat the same rice. That is not how it works with books. You have to get the right book in the right language at the right reading level to the right kid. That is an enormously difficult distributional challenge. I had talked to Prothm Books again in in India and they're so creative. They said, We tried everything to solve this last mile problem, this distribution challenge, so that we were getting our print books, not only to schools in the major cities, but that we could really reach villages. They had a partnership with a company that distributes products, toiletries, and tried having them in the railroad stations, and she said, finally, we realized, even if we had a partnership with Coca Cola, which is probably has the most extensive distribution network of anything in the world, right? Anywhere you go, you can get a coca cola. Said it wouldn't work. Because everybody wants to drink the same coca cola. You can ship one type of coca cola everywhere. But you would need thousands of books to find that fit. They're very unique and personal. And that is what is amazing about the digital distribution, right? Is that when I have that cell phone library in my pocket, I can choose, I can choose from thousands. They are all they're sort of like a magical Mary Poppins bag. There is I think a similar related question here. Is it Artur or Artur? But they mentioned they have a teenage son listening in, who sounds pretty precocious because he was asking, well, you know, how do you deal with translation versus localization, right? And I think of those as translation is about the language. Localization is about the culture. And localization is a bigger challenge. If you have to change the pictures of a book, that's quite expensive to do, right? And so what it seemed to me is we need to choose books based on whether their pictures already travel well. And then you know, Changing the text is actually relatively quite simple. I don't remember if you remember the pie chart, but the illustrator gets paid more than the author, because that's where the labor is in children's books. And that's hard to start from scratch. And we have posted your final question that you wanted to throw out to the community about. Whether you believe in a human right to read and why or why not. We'd love for your feedback about that, not only in the chat, but certainly by unmuting and sharing with us as a large group. In healthcare, we want people to be able to negotiate their own health care, and that's going to be really difficult if they can't read. So I'm in pediatrics, but even when we're working with children, we want them to also be part of their own care. Do you pronounce your name, Kiva, Kava? It's Keva like Kev Keva. In your pediatric practice, do you distribute books to children that come in for visits? Yes. We actually have an opportunity for them to take books home with them. And then once a year, we bring in a mobile library, and we have a big event around it. So that's new as of last year. So I mentioned that I had three daughters. Their pediatrician had been at I U Riley, right? An IU faculty member, and they got books every time they went to the pediatrician. And I realized it was ridiculous. At one point we moved houses, and I needed to pare down the book collection. I counted we had 600 books, right? And people were throwing new books at my kids. Every time we went to the pediatrician. At the preschool, there was a shelf full of books to give away. There's little free libraries in our community. They would get books as presents regularly. And this is the the gap, the contrast between situations of book hunger and situations of, you know, almost an excess, As Americans, we're trying to manage our book diets. There's more available to read, is a good idea or that we have time available. And so making choices is actually difficult thing. That changed a little bit with impact of COVID. I had children ages, three, seven and ten approximately during that. And for the first time, My family was experiencing book hunger cause the kids were not in school. The library was closed, right? And so all of a sudden, this became not just something that I studied, but that for the first time my family was affected by. And in the absence of those sort of socially structured and government funded mechanisms to make books available to my children, it was an incredibly noticeable challenge. I see that Kristie has her hand raised. What would you like to say? Yeah, I'm curious if other countries are experiencing book hunger in the form of policy restrictions. So thinking about book banning that's happening in the US. And then additionally, the pivot back to or towards again, the science of reading and how that impact has the potential to impact restrictions on what is read or at least what is purchased by schools to be read. I'm just curious about that. Mm hmm. Oh, those are great. Those are great questions. You know, one thing that we are still working on the US, I think maybe Indiana just passed legislation about this about requiring teachers to be trained in phonics based literacy instruction. That is a difference that you noticed at the very lowest resourced education districts. That is not always the case, and it's so important. It's an advantage that we have internationally because internationally most languages have a completely phonetic system. Teaching reading skills in English is actually more difficult than in more of the world's languages. U Oh, what was the first part of the question? It was so interesting. It was connected to book banning and whether or not that's occurring elsewhere. Yes. So in my writing about the right to read as a humans rights issue, I do talk about book banning and liberty, but also saying there's really two sides here, right? Liberty aspect of the right might be the first thing that we think about, but there's also a public provision. Aspect, right? You can't make use of the liberty to read if the books are not being made available to you. So these really go hand in hand. We have seen historically in a lot of countries that certain languages get banned, right? You know, I'm sure that Russia would be interested to discourage publishing in Ukrainian, for example. And sometimes we have policies that have an unintended impact of restricting literature available. So I know that some African countries, you know, the Department of Education has a vetting process before they'll authorize schools to purchase a particular title. And, you know, a big part of what they're doing is making sure that you know the language corresponds to, that it's proper and everything. But I think on an unanticipated way, that's a big cost, especially now when we're looking at newer methods that can so efficiently create books. Once you add in that you need a bureaucrat stamp of approval, you're really going to limit the book variety available. So there is sort of also an element of clearing out red tape. Oh, and then, not just especially if anybody in the audience is from outside Indiana, we have a really pernicious legislative proposal right now in the state assembly, that would make it a felony for a teacher librarian or principal to provide someone under 18 with reading material that is harmful to minors language that is not defined in the statute, right? And this has a very chilling effect, I think. But as a lawyer, also see ways to work around it. I've got some strategic ideas for how to prevent that from having such a negative impact even if it does pass. And posing that comment at this time is very challenging because we want to take a pause here, and thank you for taking some time to help us with this conversation, but also recognize that there are some folks that will need to leave at this point and head off to other meetings at the top of the hour. And so we want to thank everybody for attending. We are going to stay on board for those that want to hang around for a little bit to continue the conversation, but we officially want to thank you for attending. Lea, you are an excellent example of an IUPI faculty member who has engaged in what we call translational research. It's interdisciplinary. It's using generated knowledge to solve problems, and we hope that other IUPI faculty will take advantage of that opportunity to share that with us so that we can help promote that and have these conversations in the future. So give a round of applause to Leah for taking the time to Sure Thank you. Everybody. Thank you. And raising some very important questions, some great engaging conversation. And if you have to leave, thank you for coming, we'll see you next time, but if you want to stay around and keep engaging in the conversation until the top of the hour, please feel welcome to do so.